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The lobe separation angle in a natural car engine conveys a considerable impact, especially regarding the maximum torque. My engine shop builds all kinds of hot rod motors, and they told me that because I am running a 4 speed manual, I will better be able to take advantage of the 108 LSA. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. 106 LSA: At 106 LSA, the cylinder pressure is a bit higher. "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts It had a robust powerband with tons of usable torque. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. Given that nitrous works best in the mid- to upper-rpm range, nitrous-powered engines need a wider lobe separation, like 112 . Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. 110 for sure. Most street cams are ground 4 degrees advanced which boosts bottom end, throttle response, vacume, mpg driveability etc. . by jim martin Mon May 12, 2003 7:10 pm, Post Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. The Idles increasing vacuum improves the idle quality and the engines overall performance. It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. A forum community dedicated to hot rod owners and enthusiasts. Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Epilepsy is a chronic noncommunicable brain (neurological) disorder associated with excessive neuronal activity and unprovoked seizures referred to as 'epileptic seizures' and sensory-motor deficits that cause neurobiological, cognitive, psychological, and social consequences to the patient. As usual, Marc (aka Master) is correct. = Moderately Wide 110-108 Deg. The Crane has a smoother idle, broader power band, and . The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. . "Ninety-nine percent of cranking compression is dictated by static compression ratio and intake-valve closing point," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. Powerband serves a massive contribution to the acceleration car. That notion is completely false. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. whats the difference in how the car will run. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. A cam's lobe separation determines where and for how long peak torque occurs in an engine's rpm range. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. Yearh, I have been reading a lot about this issue. 106 LSA: On the contrary, if we look at the 106 LSA, we will find it more advantageous and energy efficient than the 110 LSA engine. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. But, the internal processings are much more complicated. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. So, the 110 LSA engine is a suitable choice for people prone to be the fan of a powerful engine with mighty acceleration power. Your best bet would be to talk to one of the experts at a cam company to get a custom grind if you're that into the specs. by ANT Tue May 13, 2003 1:08 pm, Post Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! O onovakind67 Registered Joined Dec 14, 2001 6,242 Posts As you can see in the graph, the 101 LSA cam actually had the highest cranking compression of the batch: 185 psi. Lobe separation angle does. Pick the cam with the valve timing events that fit the engine best, forget about LSA, it is only a result of the events. A cam with 110 lobe center will pull approximately 14-18"of vacuum is borderline for that type of application. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. The 108-degree cam offered both the most power and torque, but idle quality suffered compared to the wider LSAs. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. So, this LSA is suitable for your engine and its components. In general, a stock replacement camshaft with duration of less than 200 degrees will have a lobe separation angle of more than 114 degrees. I do believe that stock VW seperation is 108 and 112 is used alot in turbo and midrange cams for VW's while 106 is used for the top end cams. by Kdub Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:05 pm, Post It made 472.4 lb-ft at peak, a 21.5lb-ft disparity from the 101 cam. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. At a lower LSA, the engine reaches the peak of the torque earlier than the standard time but generates a lower RPM.On the contrary, at a higher LSA, the engine reaches the peak torque at a higher resistance level and generates a bulk number of RPM. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. indeed, expect low vacuum with anything lower than 110-ish. I had a 110 cam in my beetle and I didn't like it-the bottom end was doggy. This is one of the many reasons why Clay Smith Cams always recommends degreeing your camshaft in using the Lobe Center Method. Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. by mrsmythe Tue May 13, 2003 5:45 am, Post The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). With a 108 degree lobe center, a cam will have a rougher idle and produce less vacuum due to more overlap. A 110-degree lobe separation angle means that the peak opening points of the intake and exhaust lobes are 110 degrees apart. Well, there can be different reasons for this problem. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. Post When choosing a cam, power gains shouldn't be the only consideration. However, it is fixable. The introduction of Lunati'snew Bootleggerhydraulic series - with its wicked 108-degree lobe-separation angle, fast opening profile and plenty of area under the lift curve - will serve only to fuel the flames on this heated bench-racing topic. A cam with a 112 lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110 lobe center. I know a little about cams. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . You must log in or register to reply here. If you're an OEM automaker looking for a steady idle, good fuel economy, and passing tailpipe emissions, this is the cam of choice. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. A good amount of idle vacuum or increased idle vacuum found at 110 LSA advances the engines efficiency. Nitrous engines, which make plenty of power and torque, often run wide lobe separation angles to moderate cylinder pressures and temperatures. In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. 3.75" stroke= 108 LSA 4.00" stroke= 110 LSA 4.25" stroke= 112 LSA 4.50" stroke= 114 LSA I can see exactly where his theory is coming from. On the cranking compression test, Brul recorded 175 psi, a 10-psi drop from the outgoing 101 cam. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. = Tight Below 104 Deg. Let's just talk lobe sep angle. . VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. The takeaway is simple on the surface: A tighter LSA makes more low-end and peak torque at the expense of just a few top-end ponies. The 290 advertised duration and 114 lobe separation would contribute to a lazy power curve. JavaScript is disabled. 110 LSA: On the contrary, 110LSA has a higher piston-to-valve clearance rate. To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. How do the lobe separations change when you factor in turbocharging? Good cam for a lower rpm street engine. Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. We will safeguard your e-mail and only send content you request. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. [img]http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h291/downsideup09/DSCF2616-1.jpg[/img], [img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs139.snc1/5928_111214857139_110806152139_2127222_6826389_n.jpg[/img]. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. by SStrokerAce Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:36 pm, Post The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. Cam timing plays an important role not only in the power generated but also the overall character of the powerplant. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. 110 LSA: You will find the complete opposite scenario here. So, sit tight back and explore. They also reduce stress on the outdrive. The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. If the intake valve opens too early, it will push the new charge into the intake manifold. Things like idle vacuum, fuel economy, and tuning all factor into picking the right cam. A wider lobe separation angle can often provide more power, but it can also lead to more wear on the engine. To establish the position of each lobe, the traditional reference point is where the lobes reach max lift. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. I would say 114-117* would be a normal 1960's stock cam range and 117* to 120* is more what we see on modern engines. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. Thanks for the replies so far. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. Another related thought to consider when selecting a cam is inches of vacuum for your engine application when deciding upon a Lobe Center. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. More than any other component, the cam profile determines things like idle quality, mileage, and overall driveability. As you tighten the centers ( 108 ) the same engine will make MORE power through the mide range and top end. The 402-inch LS2/LS3 hybrid stroker started out with an LS2 aluminum block. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. As a result, a wider valve opening system with no overlapping allows more oil to fall through the oil inlet. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". The LSA, or lobe separation angle, is ground into the cam and cannot be changed. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. Many later model engines use wide lobe separation angles to reduce overlap for idle quality and fuel economy. I think you are asking a lot of a cam . Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. 106 LSA: The scale of efficient compression rises at 106 LSA. I am trying to pick out a hydraulic roller cam for my 351W with AFR 185s. Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? It will sound lovely I'm sure. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. 110 degrees on the lobe separation angles. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post Due to the tightness and frequent overlapping of the intake and exhaust valves, the engine cant generate the high RPM as it is supposed to. But, at 106 LSA, the cranking compression may increase above the standard PSI level. If the exhaust valve closes too early it will trap some of the spent gases in the combustion chamber, and if it closes too late it will over-scavenge the chamber and take out too much of the charge, again creating an artificially lean condition. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. The only reason the advance or retard a camshaft profile is to get the timing events where they need to be. The engine would idle a lot rougher and generate worse exhaust emissions largely because of unburned fuel.. Seeking 1/2" ID x 5/8" OD Black Exit Tubing for Radiator Overflow Reservoir. Enter lobe separation angle. Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. But there is a drawback of higher cylinder pressure: higher cylinder pressure may sometimes lead to piston or piston ring problems. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post The engine has AFR heads, Crane rockers, a TCI balancer, a Scat Rotating assembly with Mahle pistons, an Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap intake, an MSD ignition, and an Aeromotive fuel system. Aluminum flywheel & pullies. Tests have shown that, for a given cam profile, a tighter (smaller) lobe center will produce more average horsepower and a quicker revving engine. Despite no changes in lift or duration, this cam sounded much more aggressive than the other two with wider LSAs. Aug 20, 2006. Call for details with your specific combination. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. JavaScript is disabled. While lift and duration are most often discussed when talk turns to cam timing, there is a third variable that has a decided effect on both power and personality. In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. Simply put, the lobe center of the camshaft controls where the power curve is applied. The extra cubic inches will smooth out a rough idle in a 327. not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. so the power will come on a litter sooner with the 114, and fall off a little sooner? Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. As lobe seperation spreads does the powerband. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. Lobe separations gives lots of overlap and lobe centers just happens when the grinder decides how the peak of the lobe will arrive on a specific grind by their tooling. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. 108 Lobe Separation These are my motors specs 1979 - 347 Stroker 10:1 Compression Holley 670 Street Avenger or a Holley 650 (I have both) Roush 200 Cylinder Heads (minor head work) 1.6 Roller Rockers Shorty BBK Headers 373 Rear End 5 Speed Transmission Cross Gap Intake (Power Band 1500-6500) FlowMaster Dual Exhaust (of course no Cats) MSD 6Al You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. Thanks. Before we all start suffering from separation anxiety, we need to understand what lobe separation angle actually is and then how it affects your engine. A lower efficient compression rate leads to a higher fuel consumption rate by your engine to produce higher power. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. This causes the engine's street manners and tuning to become fickle. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. 03 The 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods were combined with a set of forged asymmetrical pistons from JE. by jobes Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:51 pm, Post If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. All rights reserved. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. Methods: We evaluated 30 individuals with PD (62.47.2 years) and 22 age-matched healthy controls (61.06.4 years). 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. but less of it at the same time. If you take any of the . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. by flat4racer17 Mon May 12, 2003 1:40 pm, Post 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. I've heard similar cams (only about 5*'s off) and they have a nice rumble to them. OK, what is hydraboost, and how do you like how the cam performs??? I've seen that Webcam cams can be ordered with either of the above. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. Another difference between the two involves the power curve. Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" 10 Tuning the timing curve and fuel from the 42-lb/hr FAST injectors was handled by this Holley HP management system. ditto with the above. It really comes down to the application. 106 LSA: You can see an increasing EGR effect at 106 LSA. 110 LSA: On the contrary, if you look at the powerband at 110 LSA, the powerband is comparatively broader. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. LS Exhaust Manifold Bolt Torque (Everything You Need To Know), Holley Power Valve Sizes: Everything There is to Know. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. The 110o will make more power overall. BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. Comp cam hydraulic roller lifters. Your email address will not be published. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. Looking at 108vs. The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. Brul slid the 113-LSA cam, the widest of the test, into the engine's heart and set about putting all the pieces back in place. Coupled that with the low first gear of the five speed, it ought to create some real traction problems. In terms of horsepower, the disparity between all three cams was only 6.5 hp, with a scant 100 rpm separating the peaks. One segment that truly benefits from a wider LSA is the marine marine market. Elle concerne 264 taxons des degrs divers. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. After consulting with many experts, you are still in confusion between 106 and 110- lobe separation angles. Usually, this separation angle ranges from 95-degree to 120-degree. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. A cam with a 112lobe center will idle smoother than a cam with a 110lobe center. The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again.